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What place (if any) does sadism have on Gor? The basis of Gorean Shores

Whom does a slave obey?

What place (if any) does sadism have on Gor?

Lemuel~~~ ~looking to the water clock and noting the Ahn I rap My knuckles on the table before Me to get E/everyone's attention~
Alright...let's get started. Same rules as always. Any topics, please whisper them to Me.

Kayla~~~ ~fanning My face as I sit back to the beginning of the Forum~

topaz{Rast}~~~ *sits quietly, listening*

Asellus~~~ *turns attentively to Lemuel to hear the first topic*

Lemuel~~~ O.K. - here's the first topic...
"What place (if any) does sadism have on Gor?"

Paedur~~~ Interesting topic Lemuel. *nods*

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening attentively as the first topic is brought up*

Mandi~~~ Sadism per se does not belong on Gor.

topaz{Rast}~~~ topaz personally does not think that sadism belongs on Gor...it is a tough place aye....but cruel, nay.....a Master/Mistress does not really inflict pain simply for the sake of pain, tis usually for correction if done at all she thinks??

Lemuel~~~ Why not, Mandi? Why would sadism be absent on Gor?

Emerald Forest~~~ *it does not exist on gor,gor is gor*

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *respectfully offering*..
since sadism is the act of deriving pleasure from inflicting pain upon another.. in all that jaz has read, it wouldn't have a place on Gor.
Yes.. a Master.. may do what he pleases with what is his, but since most Gorean Masters aren't cruel.. she just feels it wouldn't take place.
in her opinion.

Mandi~~~ The cultural norms are different on Gor, and there is no need for it.

Emerald Forest~~~ *what would You differ to sadism,I mean there is torture on gor,but for a reason where sadism does not need a reason*

Paedur~~~ Easy topaz, as sadism is not cruel, only the image it paints.
but I do agree Gor is Gor, and I have not read where sadism is a part of it, but then some may say the Master/slave role is sadism in another form.

Errand Knight~~~ Well as a starter we all accept that gor is not bdsm. Secondly it seems to me from My readings that most Masters are not sadistic in their behaviour towards slaves. Pain is not generally inflicted for no purpose other than enjoying the pain of a slave for its own sake. Still many items of slave equipment do have an inference of sadistic pleasure and i would therefore assume that there were some Masters to pleasured themselves with the pain of their slaves

kanda{Sg}~~~ *listens to the conversation*

Kayla~~~ I agree towards slaves it is absent but towards Men in battle.. There are plenty of sadistic acts in the books

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Here's a quote from "Outlaw" that explains it:

Perhaps it should only be added that the Gorean master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her master. On the other hand, it is not too unusual a set of compartments on Gor where the master, in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next.
Chapter 6, pages 53-54, Outlaw of Gor

Emerald Forest~~~ *I wouldn't say that they are sadistic in battle,I say that, that is just the way warriors fight S*

Paedur~~~ Wonders though, as many slaves want and yearn for the brand.
that is quite painful.
that the Master is always powerful and his pleaure comes first, regradless of how that pleasure may be seen of taken.
I know that the training rituals of many is sadistic in nature and yet exhilerating when done correctly.
so I think it must be careful to better define sadism as it applies to the question versus how it applies particularly to BDSM.

Lemuel~~~ Please note that JN qualifies in the quote that a girl "will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty", but that doesn't mean sadism is completely absent.

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *offering*
one don't feel that it's so much that the girl *wants* the brand Master Paedur.. according to the books the girls would scream or even faint when they were branded. But it was done to properly mark them as slave, whereas the collar, was different in where it marked Whom owned the girl.
However, now afterwards.. when looking at the brand.. or being commanded *brand*.. the girl would notice the loveliness of the mark and she knew it made her more valuable as did her intelligence.. the amount of training she had.. etc..

Emerald Forest~~~ *I think the only reason that slaves yearn for the brand is because it looks pretty on them,not because of the pain of inflicks,and He dosen't cause pain when He gets His pleasures though*

Asellus~~~ Hmmmm....*listening as Lemuel mentions the "almost" part*
Perhaps that was for the readers' interpretations.
You know there's always someone who marches to the beat of a different drum--I'm sure that would be no exception even on Gor.

Kayla~~~ I think the Warriors found alot of pleasure in the pain of thier enemy... It shows in the Panther girls towards thier female captives (as well as male) and the Warriors towards the Kurii

kanda{Sg}~~~ *smiles at her sis..thinking jas gave a wonderful answer..smiling at her..giving her the thumbs up*

Asellus~~~ But he (John Norman) also makes no other mention of such sadistic practices (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm sure, if it was in fact done even on Gor, then it was a byproduct of the Masters' intentions....perhaps...?

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *looking to her Owner.. smiling*.. and cruelty can come in many forms.. as in bringing a girl on the verge of slave orgasm and then slowing down and bringing her to that point again and denying that pleasure.. or even a Masters' controlling his girl's amount of pleasure she's to get.. or by withholding food from a girl.. among other ways..

Lemuel~~~ ~nods at Kayla's example of the panther girls~ Yes, there would likely be some individuals or groups that took out there frustrations by being cruel to others, especially slaves.

Emerald Forest~~~ *well with the kurri I think that that wasn't sadism I think it was more torture*

Errand Knight~~~ I know Norman talks about there being no need for sadism ..and I accept that, but if one regards sadism as gaining pleasure from anothers pain then therte are many areas of gor which are sadistic ..whether that be in the treatment of enemies, in the giving of punishment and even in sex with a slave

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to jasma~ Aye, and a Master may intend to be cruel, but the girl may see it in a different light. For example, when Marcus tried to be cruel to Phoebe in "Magicians"...

Then he had discovered that she was from Cos, that ubarate which was his hated foe, at the hands of whose mercenary and regular forces he had seen his city destroyed. It was no wonder that in rage he had vowed to make the lovely slave stand proxy for Cos, that he might then vent upon her his fury, and his hatred, for Cos, and all things Cosian. And so it was that he had determined to reduce and humiliate her, and make her suffer, but with each cuffing, with each command, with each kick, with each blow of the whip, she became only the more his, and the more loving.
Magicians of Gor, pages 14 and 15

Errand Knight~~~ example: Ive forgotten the name of the comtraption ...but where slaves are killed by being layed out in a rack over the canals for urt bait

Lemuel~~~ ~scratching My head~ Hmmm......I don't remember that one E.K.
I do recall something similar, girls being used by urt hunters as bait...but then they were only tied by the neck to the raft and allowed to swim.

Errand Knight~~~ torture may or may not be sadistic surely?

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Yes, I agree. Torture by itself is not inherently sadistic. It only becomes sadistic if the torturer derives pleasure from inflicting it on others.

Errand Knight~~~ torture may or may not be sadistic surely?

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Yes, I agree. Torture by itself is not inherently sadistic. It only becomes sadistic if the torturer derives pleasure from inflicting it on others.

Errand Knight~~~ Im sure that Masters who used a pleasure rack on a slave would find that a slave might not regard it as a pleasure instrument ..unless she was a masochist

Paedur~~~ And what torturer does not find pleasure in His trade?

Emerald Forest~~~ *but torture and sadism are both different*

Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ I would say that not all torturers would enjoy it, though I would grant You that many undoubtedly do. Think of it this way, what parent enjoys disciplining their child?

kanda{Sg}~~~ *ponders this whole issue*

Paedur~~~ Careful there Lemuel, for what Master enjoys punishing His slave?
I would not ever say discipline is torture or sadistic.
It is necessary.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ The point is that one whose job it is to torture others may see it as nothing more than something that is necessary. They may not derive any special pleasure from it. I'm not saying it's the norm, just a possibility that shouldn't be overlooked.

Paedur~~~ I would disagree with You there Lemuel, for do We not tend to move to the things We like or are drawn too.
I have yet to find one who Tortures who does not enjoy their work immensely.
They may see it as necessary, but not a necessary evil.

Lemuel~~~ From "Blood Brothers" pages 139 and 140:

“There are many slaveries,” I said, “and some are doubtless quite fearful and unpleasant.”
“Yes,” she shuddered. She had heard, I gathered, of certain agricultural slaveries, and of slaveries such as those in the public kitchens and laundries. Too, she was doubtless familiar with contempt slaveries and vengeance slaveries. One form of vengeance slavery is the proxy slavery, in which one woman, totally innocent, is enslaved and made to stand proxy for a hated, at-least-temporarily-inaccessible woman, even being given her name. The proxy, of course, being enslaved, is truly enslaved. Even if the hated woman is later captured the proxy is not freed. She is generally, merely, given away or sold.

Errand Knight~~~ if sadism can be defined as the gaining of pleasure from the inflicting of pain One would however have to conclude that it is present on gor despite Normans words. That is not to say that torture is necessarily sadistic, or the mistreatment or extreme pain inflected in battle or on prisoners is sadistic ..but some of it seems to be

Paedur~~~ Agrees in a sense with Errand Knight, but also remembers than many times sadism is couple with masochism.
So one who enjoys giving pain and one who enjoys receiving it.
So a more symbiotic relationship.
Much like a Master and slave is a symbiotic relatinship. *S*

Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ Again, I say it is possible to inflict torture without enjoying it. I agree that those that *choose* it as a profesion would likely enjoy it, but there are several scenarios I can imagine where One might be pressed into service and have some reluctance, but would go through with it anyway because they felt it was necessary.

Errand Knight~~~ totally agreeing with Lemuel that torture doesnt equate to sadism

akeria{Pergi}~~~ ~smiling softly as girl hears the discussion~

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ At any rate, I think that there likely is some sadism on Gor, though it would be less common than on Earth IMO.

Errand Knight~~~ Paedur: interestingly though i havent in My readings to date come across any slave who I would regard as inherently mascochistic ...the mature of a slaves relationship with her master/Mistress means that she gives her soul for His/Her pleasure ...whether pain is enjoyed becomes a mute point therefore

Errand Knight~~~ agrees with Lemuel
at the same time I suggest that those who use Normans words to deny its presence need to think again

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening once again as she catches up on the scribing*

Paedur~~~ Errand Knight.
You took My allusion a bit too much tit for tat.
I was not nor did not say that a salve/Master relationship was in any way sidistic.
What I was referring too was that the Master and slave work well together, one to be served, one to serve.
A symbiotic relationship.
Much like a Sadist needs a masochist, and vice versa to find that center of themselves.
So again a symbiotic relationship.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to E.K.~ The quote I offered from "Magicians" bears that out. Phoebe acted somewhat masochistic when Marcus was treating her cruelly...but I don't think it was so much that she enjoyed the pain as that she loved Marcus and understood the *Why* behind His actions.

Errand Knight~~~ Paedur: that is fair comment Friend

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *remembering the quote in Magicians her Owner speaks about.. nodding head*

akeria{Pergi}~~~ ~listening and learning~

Paedur~~~ Chuckles.
I do try at times Errand Knight to be fair.
Even when the words are so difficult to convey across an emotionless screen. LOL

shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~sits quiet just listening~*~

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ We seem to have talked this topic out...does anyone have anything further to add, or another topic for discussion?


The basis of Gorean Shores

Malitia~~~ Tal everyone... I have a question, if someone has the time.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to Malitia~ Go ahead. What's Your question?

Malitia~~~ to Lemuel~ Thank you. I wish to know what the basis of the Gorean Shores is... As in, if one were to choose a specific environment, what would this area be?

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Gorean Shores is a paga tavern located in the city of Port Kar. The time setting is prior to the battle on the 25th of Se'kara and prior to the finding of the Home Stone.

Kyoto~~~ Malitia, GS is set in the city of Port Kar

Malitia~~~ Alright. Thank you for your time, I wish you all well.

Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: if We're pre 10120 CA, how cum we dont see anything of the Ubars who think they run Port Kar ....Chung, Eteocles, Nigel, Sullius Maximus and Henrius Sevarius?

Lemuel~~~ ~grins at E.K.~ Probably because we're at the point when the ubars were ousted and the Council of Captains took control...just before the battle of Se'kara...~chuckles~

Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: a bit Groundhog Dayish ..but I'll cop that *laffin*

Lemuel~~~ ~chuckling~ Yes, I think it's a bit odd too, also a little limiting on the oportunities for roleplay, but that's the way it is. ~S~

Whom does a slave obey?

Lemuel~~~ Next topic, a question about obedience:
Who must a slave obey? All free? Just her Owner? Or what?

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *listening as the next topic is brought forth*

Kayla~~~ all Free

Lemuel~~~ ~smiles at Kayla~ I think it's just a wee bit more complicated than that. Otherwise the slave would obey that last person that spoke to her. ~chuckles~

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ in jaz's opinion.. she feels it comes down to a slave must obey all Free.. but also for a personally owned slave.. her Owner's words always should come first..

Kyoto~~~ A slave should be obedient to all free up to the limits of their restrictions. It's what I expect of pen and all slaves.
(pen and I just had a brief discusion clarifying this topic)

Lemuel~~~ ~nods at Kyoto and jasma~ I think there must be some common sense on the slave's part as well. For instance, a Free may tell a girl to kill herself. Surely her Owner wouldn't want that even if He hadn't specifically prohibited it.

Kyoto~~~ *chuckling*
Aye, penny is so willing to be pleasing that if it were not for very explicit directions, she would do anything anyone asked, no matter the repurcussions.

Kayla~~~ I agree Lemuel... But sometimes restrictions and orders from an Owner is not all that Gorean.. Like don't serve so and so and don't Speak to this one... If a Gorean slave strives to please ALL Free then they can't go wrong *ss*

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *nodding up to her Master as He speaks*

Errand Knight~~~ and what if a slave is instructed to do what she knows is beyond what her Master has set for her?

Kyoto~~~ Then she carefully advises the free that her Master has forbidden her to venture into that territory and that if he has a problem, then he needs to speak to her Master.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to Kayla~ Yes, that is a good guideline to follow.
~looks to E.K. and smiles~ I would think that the slave would politely apologize to the Free and inform them that their Owner has prohibited them from doing whatever the command in question entails.

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *offering*
then a slave should only do what her Master has instructed her to do and beg forgiveness from the other Free and explain her restrictions and as well let her Master know what had happened..

Kayla~~~ wellllll... ~grins~ That will and has happened...but I think the slave should obey the Free and let the Free work out the problem... Now I say this within safety guidlines.. a slave should never surrend on demand RT info or knowly harm themselves but if there is a problem a slave should not be put in the descision of what Free to obey... But to obey with complete submission

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ which is also why it is important at times to copy and paste the conversation..

Errand Knight~~~ *smiles*
you know I understand that well, but Im trying to push the point
but if the Master insists that the slave obey?

penny{Kyo}~~~ *poking her head in to comment on the topic from her perspective*
For penny, this whole subject is a challenging one, for penny IS restricted from speaking to particular people, and is caught in the difficult position of having to try to be polite while following rules... very challenging, indeed...

Lemuel~~~ ~shakes My head~ I don't think a personally owned slave should ignore her restrictions in order to please a stranger, Kayla.

Kayla~~~ I think the slave should obey the Free's commands and then let the Owner take up the issue with the Free... The moment has past and then there is nothing more a slave can do within the roleplay but obey...

Kayla~~~ I am looking at it as it is Gor.. This is roleplay... So a slave would then say no?... I don't see it on Gor ~grins~..

Kyoto~~~ EK, if they insist on pushing it, I expect penny to leave and forward him to me.
Now, as to penny's comment about not being allowed to speak to specific people, at least one of those has totally ignored my restrictions on every occasion and has even tried to take her from me in r/t.

Errand Knight~~~ seems we have a fundamantal difference here that needs some thinking ..some who believe that unlimiately a slave must do what the free says even having protested about what her Master allows ....others who believe a slave may untimately say no to a Free

Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ I could probably find an example from the books for You if I took the time, but I'm relatively sure that there have been occasions in the books were a slave told a Man she was not permitted to do something.

Kayla~~~ Kyoto we of course are not speaking about RT here and I would hunt someone down trying to tear up my Home in RT...
But in the roleplay sense....

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *shaking head*.. in jaz's opinion Mistress Kayla.. a personally owned slave shouldn't ignore her Owner's words though. jaz wishes to be pleasing to all free, but a girl don't think she should have to do something to please a Free that she knows is going to be against what her Master has said.. for His displeasure in her is far more than what Another's displeasure is going to be.

Kyoto~~~ I disagree, Kayla, some so called "Free" take advantage of the r/p situation to get their jollies and have no fear of the repurcusions...

Errand Knight~~~ Kyoto: yep I understand that vt gives a slave the ability to leave ....Im interested in what was intended on gor when the issue was forced ..just assume that the vt option wasnt available ..what would have happened in the books?

Kayla~~~ and I am sure Lemuel You will also find examples where some of those slaves though having stated her Owners preferences would have been made to obey anyway *ss*

Kyoto~~~ EK, the slave has no rights, and as an extension, has no voice, so when I say that penny may not do something it is not her saying no, it is me.

Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles~ Yes, but there's the rub, isn't it? Being *forced* to obey rather than obeying willingly. ~S~

Errand Knight~~~ see I think Kayla is dead right ..ultimately I slave must obey the Free irrespective of her absent Masters rules..it then becomes a matter for the free to settle in the customary way

Kayla~~~ I am not saying to ignore them jaz.. i am saying a slave should state her restrictions but then ultimately following through with the orders of Who is before her at the time...
Please tell Me anyone if on Gor and a determined Man stated his command and held no regard for a girls restrictions or the orders of the Owner then what is the recourse of that girl kneeling at the feet of this Man?... She could attempt to run I guess but in all truth she would not get very far...
I guess My point here is to state alot of restrctions put on slaves online are not book based and make roleplay difficult and still be in keeping with the Gor of the books

Kyoto~~~ Ok, it has occured that penny, and other slaves I have owned in the past, have, through role playing, placed themselves into situations that they could not simply extricate themselves from. If it was done by honorable Goreans, then I accept it and deal with them in person, either retrieving them or paying the ransom.
But too many HNG's walk in and demand things that aren't acceptable, that is where the line in the sand is drawn.

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ even if a girl's Master is absent.. it don't mean that the slave can't explain to the other Free what is allowed and not.. just like a girl that thinks she don't have to obey her Owner's words, just because He isn't around.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ I agree with the last part Kayla. There are some restrictions that aren't very Gorean, but by the same token, there are some demands that aren't very Gorean either. Sometimes it's hard to strike a balance.

Kyoto~~~ But also remember Kayla, that in a paga tavern in the books, 99% of the slaves were tavern owned and free for use with a cup of paga... rarely did a slave enter without her Master dragging her in.

Errand Knight~~~ ok lets say Im here with jasma and i take a fancy to her ankle chain and slave bells ..I tell her to give them to me ..she says i cannot they are a gift from Lemuel..I say fuck Lemuel, I'll see Him in the pits...give them I order it ....now jasma is a clever slave and will have c&p'd the nasty HNG EK and will take off from vt ...just assume she couldnt ..what would she do on gor?

Kayla~~~ I agree Kyoto and HNG's are not in this mix of which I speak...
An example... A girl is serving me and spills the wine on My gown and I backhand her and she states to Me as I rise to post her that her Master says none can touch her but Him...
Well in My wrath and embarassment at the goblet of wine ruining My robes I decide that I will whip the girl regardless.. what should the slave do?

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ in most instances in the books if a girl was restricted sexually, she'd be placed in an iron belt or something.. and in one of the books and a girl can't remember which one.. in serving.. even though naked and when the Free went to grab her for a kiss.. she said she was white silk.. jaz don't remember the girl being used then, but a red silk was taken instead.

Kayla~~~ she damn well better give the slave bells up LOL...

Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ On Gor she would resist because she would presumably know My wishes.

Kyoto~~~ Most girls on the street are out on errands or have been granted free time to socialize. Slaves were common enough, that men did not have to accost them and if they did it was quickly done.
And if a slave per chance might beg use from a stranger, remember what Tarl did in Magicians, he sent the girl home to tell her Master what she did.

Errand Knight~~~ Kayla; exactly ..and if she doesnt ..well shes but a slave ..I'll kill her for her insolence take the bells anyway ..and offer Lemuel a few coppers, nay a single silver, compensation

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *looking to Master Knight.. winking and speaking softly*.. a girl couldn't give them to You, Master.. for slavebells are usually ownly put on and taken off by a Free.. in jaz's case.. her Owner..
now.. speaking on Gor.. a girl would beg but ultimately give You her ankle to remove them.. knowing she will still tell her Owner as soon as she sees Him..
and Mistress Kayla.. a girl serving You that was *clumsy* in her serve.. should automatically drop to Your feet and beg forgiveness for the spilling of the wine.. and hope that You don't punish her.. but if so.. she would then still have to tell her Owner when she returns to Him.. and more than likely would get punished again..

Kyoto~~~ Now that is a different story Kayla. If a girl were stupid enough to spill on you in this setting, then it is a deliberate act and she should be, at the very least, smacked as you have said. I would expect that you would then c&p the incident and do as you see fit. I have no tolerance for idiotic slaves and would personally beat her to within an inch of her life.

Lemuel~~~ But her refusal needn't be insolent, E.K. - she is merely being obedient to her Owner's wishes.

Kyoto~~~ jaz, I think that was elinor in Captive, it was when the girls were serving the guards around the fire.

Kayla~~~ But that isn't good enough Kyoto I am going to beat the girl here and now and not wait to see if You agree or not! ~grins~ and I grab her by the hair and drag her to the post...
what is the girl to do?

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ thank You, Master Kyoto.. a girl had thought so.. but she's not been remembering things as well as she used to.. *lowering eyes*

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Again Kayla, there is the display of *force* on your part, so the girl should play it out. Of course she should report back to her Master, but she should roleplay the situation if possible.

Kyoto~~~ Just as I said, Kayla, c&p it... I wasn't disagreeing with you. But also remember that you, as a free woman, may have to worry about other repurcussions than I would.

Kyoto~~~ *winking at jaz*
Who does these days...

Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: sure shes being a sweetie as jasma always will be ..but ultimately can and should she say no to my insistence ...see as silly as it seems I hold that on gor she would have to obey Me and give Me her anklet and report the matter to you and have you cum garrett Me ..she cant say no, no matter how unreasonable My order is cause Im having a bad hair day.
Its interesting becuase aside from the vt cop out there is no unanimity so such a fundamental issue

Kayla~~~ Agreed Lemuel... and a slave forced must comply and obey even if it is against the Owner's words...
Agreed Kyoto... I always keep in Mind My own neck above all else... It is only an example... but the only way a slave could avoid this senerio if a Free will not listen is to discontinue the roleplay... (ie disappear) or play it through

Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles~ As I said, I would expect her to resist as part of the roleplay. And to keep it realistic, she would ultimately fail to prevent you taking what you wanted. But there would be options, she could tell you that she cannot remove them, they are locked upon her ankle, etc.

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *smiling gratefully to Master Kyoto*

Kyoto~~~ In either case, Kayla, I would expect you, or anyone, to send me the c&p showing me of my slaves bad behavior. Because I may have punishment for her beyond anything you have done.

Kayla~~~ This I would do to cover My own ass *ss* But I think Free should not have to ask permission to do as they please and on line Gor seems to be heading that way

Errand Knight~~~ Kayla: I agree and most of Us are going to act like reasonable Goreans even when We're having a bad hair day ..most of Us a going to show respect to the site and our vt Friends ...but there is a fundamantal problem which taking gor to vt brings which isnt really solvable if taken thru ..cause the roleplay should have primacy

Lemuel~~~ Here's a quote from "Assassins" - page 183, chapter 14:

"Wait, Slave," ordered the girl.
The slave sank to her knees, head down.
"Where is your master?" demanded the chained girl.
"I do not know, Mistress," said the kitchen slave.
"Who is your master?" demanded the chained girl.
"I am not permitted to say, Mistress," whined the kitchen slave.
The girl in chains strode to her and seized her by the collar, at which point the kitchen slave began to whine and weep, trying to draw back, to turn her head away. The chained girl, half crouching, scrutinized the collar and laughed, and then, with disdain, her hands in the slave's collar, flung her to one side, where the slave lay, fearing to rise. The chained girl kicked her savagely in the side with her slipper. "Begone, Slave," she snarled, and the kitchen slave leaped to her feet and sped through the door, which was closed behind her and locked by the guard.

Kayla~~~ nods to EK...

Errand Knight~~~ learn something interesting every day!

Lemuel~~~ ~pulling My chronometer from My pouch and seeing that we have gone past the appointed time for the forum~
Alright, if there's nothing further...

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *making sure a girl's not missed anything as Master looks at His chronometer*

Errand Knight~~~ Lemuel: thanks to You and yours for Your work in another learning experience

Kyoto~~~ Thank you, Lem, it was an excellent discussion.

Kayla~~~ Good discussion tonight ~smiles~

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ ....Then I hereby call this forum to a close. Thanks to E/everyone for Y/your participation. ~S~

Lemuel~~~ ~running My fingers through My slave's hair as she finishes up the notes, smiling down at her~

jasma{LB}GSFG~~~ *stopping momentarily as she feels His fingers move through silken mane.. a soft purr escapes lips as she looks up to Him.. then lowering eyes once more to finish up the notes*