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How Free are Free Women? Wars Online/The spoils of War
how *mere* is a slave?


How Free are Free Women?

Shadowglade~~~ OK....first I'd like to welcome everyone to the GS open forum...*nodding to the various visitors* For those of you who have never been here for one, here are the rules....there will be no serving during the forum...for slaves...you need not beg to enter or to leave during the forum....and let's try to keep the cross talk to a minimum ok?
Now...that said..anyone with a topic, PM it to Me...and We'll begin....

Shadowglade~~~ The first topic is: Exactly how free are the Free Women?
As free as the Men let them believe?
How can a Woman afford to be so self-assured?

Cernus~~~ thinks of topic ,,ummmm quite the beginning

Kayla~~~ LOL... well I would say it despends on the FreeWoman and the Men around Her S**

Lady Bla~~~ ~listens quietly~

Markos~~~ not sure I wanna touch this one *LOL*

Cernus~~~ lol Marcos

Gornt~~~ The Captain is indeed brave to pick that topic

fallen~angel~~~

"A free woman is inordinately precious. She is a thousand times, and more, above a mere slave." (Players of Gor, p.92)
"For example, there is no higher person, nor one more respected, than the Gorean free woman." (Hunters of Gor, p.311)

Asellus~~~ *She chuckles at the ensuing silence* Don't let the Women intimidate You, Markos. That already answers the question if You do. *chuckling lightly*

Kayla~~~ *S* grinning at the quotes... thank you angel...

Gornt~~~ Until Her lands are over run by enemies and she is stripped and sold as a slave

Lemuel~~~ ~nodding~ Aye fa', but I think that is at the sufferance of the Men She deals with, as Lady Kayla said. If a FW gets too insulting She may end up in a collar. ~G~

Shadowglade~~~ well, in the books FW were just that...Free...it was only dangerous for them when they became rude or overly demanding of a Man....most were treated with extreme deference always....unless, and until such time as they stepped over the lines of courtesy...*shrugs* so, in the books, the FW had the assurance that either their family, or the Warriors of their home would protect them regardless of whether they liked them, because it was the Warriors duty to do so...

Cernus~~~ I have heard of Free Women begging for a Kol~ar..and in times of war...well they be the spoils

Kayla~~~ Thank goodness We are in no war *S*

Shadowglade~~~ most FW would never beg a kolar Cernus....it would be unthinkable....as for times of War....*chuckle* Women are among the spoils...indeed....but how often online is there an actual declaration of war?

jaz found a few quotes.

... I saw the warder going down the corridor. She was barefoot, and wore tatters which barely covered her calves. These tatters appeared to be the remains of what perhaps once been a double dress, now shortened. The hems of both the inner and outer skirt, doubtless in their shortenings, had been deeply serrated, each in a series of some seven or eight large, triangular points. They points were alternated in such a way that those of the inner skirt appeared between those of the outer skirt. Thus, though the general appearance of the garment suggested rags, they were, in their way, contrived rags. In a way, though she perhaps did not understand this, they invited a man to their removal. Perhaps it was her hope that if the city fell such a garment might save her life, sparing her for the collar. The white, scarflike turban on her head, I supposed, was a vanity, to conceal shortly cropped hair. The veil, of course, was appropriate for a free female. I observed her calves, her bare feet, the cleverly contrived rags she wore. Perhaps she had already rehearsed how she would surrender herself to a man. If the time came, I was sure, stern warder though she might pretend to be, she would submit herself quickly enough and appropriately enough, ending her farce, accepting nudity and a collar, to a master...
Renegades of Gor, page 207

   "Did you not expect to tear off your veil before Cosians?" I asked.
   She looked at me, angrily.    "I see you did," I said.
Renegades of Gor, page 239

   "You removed your garment well, Lady Publia," I said. "Doubtless you have practiced it many times. If I were a Cosian, however, I think you would have done it somewhat less insolently."    "Doubtless," she said.    "Under different circumstances," I said, "and if we had more time, it might be interesting to put you in a bit of slave silk, and teach you how to disrobe properly before a man."    She tossed her head.    "What formulas had you in mind to use to the Cosians?" I asked.
   "I do not know what you are talking about," she said.
   "Doubtless you rehearsed them well," I speculated.
   She looked at me, angrily.
   "Yes," I smiled. "I am sure you did."
   "Formulas?" asked Lady Claudia.
   " 'I bare my breasts before you. Make me a slave,' 'I surender to you, naked. Spare me. I beg bondage,' 'I have endeavored to conceal my true nature from men, that I am a slave. Visit justice upon me,' 'I have stripped myself before you. Let me live, that I may serve you as the most abject and loving of slaves,' and such sayings," I said.
   "Such sayings stir my belly," said Lady Claudia.
   "That is because it is the belly of a slave!" snapped Lady Publia.
   "It would be easy enough to tell," I said, "if your belly too, is that of a slave. I need only place my hand on you, and have you say such things, slowly, deeply and with feeling."
   She regarded me with horror.
   "But you are, of course, a free woman," I said.
   "Yes!" she said. "Yes!"
   I saw then that the nature of her belly, that she feared it would betray her.
   "Had you never considered such sayings?" I asked Lady Claudia.
   "Yes," she said, smiling, "often, but I had never really thought of them in such a formal way."
   "But you never dared to kneel naked before a man, and say such things?"
   "No," she said, shyly. "I was much afraid. Bondage is a great step for a woman. It is so absolute, and different. It is natural for her to fear it. And now that I long to do so, he who is to me as master has forbidden it. It seems he wants to keep me as a free woman, at least for a time, for some reason."
   That was true. I had my reasons.
   "What did you expect to do," I asked, "if, say, Cosians, or others, in darkened buildings or flaming streets, came upon you?"
   "I had thought I would have had my letter of safety," she said.
   "Do you think looting soldiers would have stopped to read your letter," I asked.
   "Perhaps not," she smiled.
   "So what would you have done?" I asked.
   "What I suppose most any woman would do," she said. "I would have stripped myself and knelt, begging to be kept as a slave. Then, if I were fortunate, I suppose I would soon thereafter, my hands bound behind me, be following my master, on a cord and nose ring."
   "It is not unlikely," I said.
Renegades of Gor, pages 240-241

fallen~angel~~~ Free Man and Free Women who share a Home Stone have much in common. Perhaps they are more apt to listen to the thoughts and feelings of one another??

Gornt~~~ ~smiling at the Advisor~ Aye Kayla, that is why We Warriors are so needed to protect the Flower of Gorean Womanhood

Cernus~~~ and aye, tis our duty as Warriors to protect them

Markos~~~ A Free Women's freedom is only allowed as far as a Man's limitations of His steel and desire for Her are

jasma{GS~FG}~~~

"Be silent, woman," said Genserix, angrily.
"I am a free woman," she said. "I may speak as I please."
"Do not seek to interfere in the affairs of men." said Genserix.
She faced the group, standing on the other side of the fire. Her feet were spread. On her feet were boots of fur. Her arms were crossed insolently upon her chest. "Are there men here?" she asked. "I wonder."
There was a rumble of angry sounds from the gathered warriors. But none did anything to discipline the girl. She was, of course, free. Free women, among the Alars, have high standing.
Mercenaries of Gor, page 54

Kayla~~~ ~smiling sweetly at Gornt~ and We love the protection *S*

Asellus~~~ Don't You think, Gornt, that there is a difference between Protection and just "covering-up" the Woman's insults, just because? *curious eyes turning towards the Warrior*

Gornt~~~ ~chuckling and nodding to Kayla~

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Even in the books it says that a cherished Companion may find Herself chained to the slave ring at the foot of the couch from time to time.

fallen~angel~~~ from Master Cabot in Mercenaries of Gor... "It is not difficult, of course, to take insolence from a woman."

Dak~~~ Thurnus did !

Gornt~~~ Asellus I do, but I would be hard pressed to be the One to face strip an FW because of an acerbic tongue

Cernus~~~ and so did Cabot...grins

Shadowglade~~~ What exactly does "covering up" Mean Asellus?

Asellus~~~ *She chuckles* Making excuses for whatever ulterior purposes. *shrugs lightly* Just wondering...

Shadowglade~~~ indeed Lemuel...but not kolared...*shrugs* Thurnus did, that's true Dak, but Thurnus was a Peasant, and His Companion stepped over the line trying to have His slave killed, and depose HIM as the leader of His community....

fallen~angel~~~ fa thinks that tolerance and acceptance would be according to the station of the Free Woman (caste as it may be) The higher the Caste, the more she will be treated with respect and courtesy

Deirdre~~~ *listening with interest to the discussion......smiling beneath the veils*

Kayla~~~ being chained to the foot of the couch for a night is not making the Woman a slave but reminding Her of Her place *S*... and any FC or Man can do so over His Woman.... what happens in the privacy of the bedchamber is sacred I think *S*

Shadowglade~~~ Hmmm...Well, I wouldn't know, as I've never had to deal with such a situation...*shrugs* FW are free..and should be treated with the same respect One would treat a Man, not because One fears them, but because One affords them the respect They are due...*shrugs*

Gornt~~~ It is to be expected Asellus that Women will plot to protect Their home and hearth, it is also to be expected Their tongues can be "shaper than the serpent's tooth"

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Aye fa' and more respect and tolerance would be shown to Free Women that shared One's Home Stone.

Asellus~~~ Caste by caste basis. *smiling at fallen angel and nodding* But a Woman's caste sometimes cannot be helped......or am I mistaken....?

jasma{GS~FG}~~~

"Disgusting! Disgusting!" cried the free woman, Boabissia, in her leather and furs, having returned to the fire, and she rushed forward, a stout, thick, short, supple, single-bladed quirtlike whip in her hand. She began to lash Feiqa, who fell to her knees, howling with misery, a whipped slave. "We do not allow such as you in an Alar camp!" cried the free woman. Feiqa put her head down. Again the lash fell on her.
I leaped to the free woman and tore the whip from her hand, hurling it angrily to the side. She looked at me, wildly, in fury, not believing I had dared to interfere. "What right have you to interfere?" she demanded. "The right of a man who is not pleased with your behavior, female," I said. "Female!" she cried, in fury. "Yes," I said.
Her hand darted to the hilt of the dagger she wore at her belt. I regarded her evenly. She, frightened, quickly removed her hand from the hilt of the dagger, crying out in frustration, in rage. The she lifted her fists and, with the sides of them, together, struck towards me. "Oh!" she cried, in misery, in frustration. I had caught both her small wrists. She could not begin to free them. "Oh!" she cried in misery, in protest, as, inexorably, slowly, I forced her down. Then she was kneeling before me, her wrists in my grip. I turned her about and flung her to her belly, and then knelt across her thighs. I removed her dagger from its sheath. "No!" she cried. I then, with her own dagger, cut her clothing from her body.
"Binding fiber," I said, not even looking, just putting out my hand. Some was fetched, a length of some five feet, or so, and, in a moment, with one end of the fiber, with a few loops and a knot, her wrists crossed, her hands were secured behind her back. I had tied her tightly, utterly helplessly, as I might have a slave. "Help!" she cried out to the warriors. "Help!" But none stirred to render her assistance. I then reversed my position on her body, kneeling now facing her feet, across the small of her back. I pulled her ankles up, behind her body, at an angle of about fifty degrees, and crossed them. I then, with the free end of the binding fiber, extending back from her wrists, tied them together, tightly, fastening them to her wrists. "Please!" she cried to the warriors but none leapt to accord her succor. I then lifted her up, in effect kneeling her, and then bent her back, her head back in the dirt, that the warriors might assess the bow of her beauty.
Mercenaries of Gor, pages 61-62

Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at jasma's quote~ Aye, that is a good example of a Free Woman being reminded of Her place.

fallen~angel~~~ from what fa has heard, Free women are either born into their caste, assume the Caste of their Free Companion, or petition to join a Caste. Children take on the Caste of their father and thus FW can in some cases become Warriors IF her father was of the Scarlet Caste.

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~looking towards Master Lemuel~.. and it happened in the open.. not in the privacy of One's chambers.. ~smiling softly and lowering eyes with respect~

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to fa'~ although they may be companioned to one of the Warrior's caste or be born into the caste itself.. there are no Women Warriors.. they don't *practice* Caste

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ Another point made in the books is that a Free Woman will be treated with respect right up until She is collared or branded. In "Players" Samos has a slave punished for laughing at a FW in His power because, at the moment, She was still technically Free.

Kayla~~~ But still of the Warrior Caste even if they do not practice the Caste S**

fallen~angel~~~ thanks jaz *S*

Gornt~~~ and that is as it should be
as long as the Woman is Free she is due respect because she is free

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ Aye, Free Women are born into the caste of their fathers and have the option of accepting the caste of their Companion, but for many castes the FW do not participate.

Asellus~~~ *Braiding and unbraiding the tasselled edge of Her cloak as She ponders to Herself, deep in thought.*

shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~listens as best she can, snuggling up to her Master~*~

fallen~angel~~~ fa is not sure of the Assassin Caste or Initiates though, it is one caste where she doesn't 'think' FW are permitted....

Shadowglade~~~ any more comments on this subject? if not We'll be needing another topic...*chuckle*

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~lifting eyes from the notes~
aye, Mistress Kayla.. with respect.. that is what jaz meant by her post..

Shadowglade~~~ Assassins do not take Companions, and thus would not have children...and Initiates are celebate...thus THEY too would not have children....

Gornt~~~ whew

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ FW are defininitely not permitted in the Initiates Caste and I think the Assassins also only allow Men. It says somewhere that Assassins recruit boys from low castes and train them up. I think it's in "Beasts"

a girl found this as well.

He seemed slow. But I knew he did not come to his somber garb by any tardiness of action or hesitancy in deed. The training of the assassin is thorough and cruel. He who wears the black of that caste has not won it easily. Candidates for the caste are chosen with great care, and only one in ten, it is said, completes the course of instruction to the satisfaction of the caste masters. It is assumed that failed candidates are slain, if not in the training, for secrets they may have learned. Withdrawal from the caste is not permitted. Training proceeds in pairs, each pair against others. Friendship is encouraged. Then, in the final training, each member of the pair must hunt the other. When one has killed one’s friend one is then likely to better understand the meaning of the black. When one has killed one’s friend one is then unlikely to find mercy in his heart for another. One is then alone, with gold and steel.
I looked at Drusus.
The assassins take in lads who are perhaps characterized by little but unusual swiftness, and cunning, and strength and skill, and perhaps a selfishness and greed, and, in time, transform this raw material into efficient, proud, merciless men, practitioners of a dark trade, men loyal to secret codes the content of which is something at which most men dare not guess.
Beasts of Gor, page 358

fallen~angel~~~ so the only way would be to petition the caste?

fallen~angel~~~ since one cant be born into either...

Kayla~~~ ~nodding to jasma with a smile~

Lemuel~~~ ~chuckles~ Initiates don't allow women in their Caste at all, one of their rules. And I doubt the Assassins would either.

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Wars Online/The spoils of War

Shadowglade~~~ topics? anyone?.......*looking around*

fallen~angel~~~ ~*listening for another topic*~

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~catching up on the scribe work.. shaking fingers.. and listening for more~

Shadowglade~~~ OOokay....since it was mentioned earlier....War....why is there no Wars on online Gor?

fallen~angel~~~ fa has a question Master....it relates to Spoils of War, what happens to FW?

Kayla~~~ what would be the point????

Lemuel~~~ ~S~ It's hard to sustain a war if one of the involved parties ignores the other.

Shadowglade~~~ if a FW is captured during a time of war, she is either ransomed back to her Home, and family, or enslaved...sometimes both...*chuckle*

Asellus~~~ I think, for the most part, due to the nature of VT as being a way to escape from RT stress combined with the fact that we are all relatively cordial people here, we do not "war" or "raid" as often on VT Gor.

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening to fa's question~
they're reduced to bondage.. or killed if not found pleasing..

fallen~angel~~~ thank You Master Shadowglad and jaz ~*smiles*~

Asellus~~~ The point, I suspect, Kayla, would be no more than any other online engagement people participate in...it's all roleplay in the end. *looking around, hoping none are offended by Her use of the word roleplay*

Shadowglade~~~ Why, to stir things up of course Kayla....I mean, c'mon, how long must We drink, and debauch before We look to other things? I mean, first, for some, the only battle We see is in a sandpit, between two friends with no intention of hurting the other, or themselves....

SholGar~~~ I think VT war would take too much typing...I have enough troubles as it is. ~S~

Asellus~~~ *Grinning at Shadowglade beneath Her veils as He reflects Her own thoughts*

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~nodding as Master Shadowglade mentions being ransomed as well.. then whispering~
welcome fa'

fallen~angel~~~ there are seldom death matches these days and if there are the one who is killed generally comes back under another name....so what is the point vt?

Shadowglade~~~ as for raiding, I happen to love it...*chuckle* but even then because of GS's neutrality stance, We must raid non Gorean chats...*chuckle* great for chain luck, but not too good for blood lust...and I happen to have some of that from time to time...*chuckle*

Lemuel~~~ ~nods at fa's words~ Aye, there is no way to keep the *dead* from rising v/t.

Kayla~~~ of all the skirmishes I have seen between sites they are all hot wind and insults... None ever has had an open war and whatever happened happened...LOL who would judge the war?

Asellus~~~ Unfortunately, fallen angel, you really can't count too much on the person behind the computer in the event of a challenge or what have you. I think we have heard or perhaps knew of at least one person throughout VT Gor that "came back" as another Person.
So...I wonder....if it's all roleplay anyway....why is "coming back" such a bad thing? So long as it's done with good intention of starting anew?

fallen~angel~~~ *giggling* would be hard to have an online war, so many people typing and all doing different things all at once, woudl be messy and how would one 'win' in the end

Shadowglade~~~ *chuckle* indeed Kayla...*nodding also to fa* both good points...

SholGar~~~ Good point Asellus....

Kayla~~~ I don't know Asellus for Me it's like the end of the Game to to start another is just too time consuming and hard work... and people always find out

Shadowglade~~~ Well Asellus, starting anew means leaving the past behind....no visiting old haunts no keeping up with old friends...*shrugs* dead is supposed to be dead isn't it? If One WERE to start anew, what would be the point of returning to where one was killed? *shrugs* that doesn't make any sense either...

fallen~angel~~~ aiii Mistress Asellus, and the one fa is thinking of was the one who demanded the 'death match' and rose from the dead, to fa that is not honourable, especially when this particular person was of the Scarlet Caste where honour is above all the highest of their code

Asellus~~~ *scratching Her head in thought* On one hand, it's sheer entertainment for Me, but that doesn't cheapen the exchanges I have between those I consider good friends online. So either way, it's a tough call....for Me, anyway. *shrugs*

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~listening~

Asellus~~~ So...we want to roleplay...and we want to experience Gor....but we also don't want that experience to ever end. But challenges are likely (and do) erupt and then what? Honor comes into question and one must be forced to leave a loved place and a loved pasttime, even.

Gornt~~~ Not if One wins

fallen~angel~~~ fighting is not 'always' the only way to resolve things.

Asellus~~~ But what of the one who loses? Does it then depend on whose love of Gor is greater? *sighing, feeling as if She is speaking around Herself in circles*

Lemuel~~~ ~looking to Asellus~ I don't have a problem with someone *reinventing* themselves if it's because they feel they made a mistake in their choice of caste or something, but to keep pissing ppl off to the point they challenge you and then coming back to basically say *nya, nya, you can't kill me* is childish.

Gornt~~~ If You win Asellus the Other departs

Gornt~~~ I agree Lemuel, this is about growth, learning and escapism.

Asellus~~~ *She simply nods at the offered answers*

fallen~angel~~~ also, when one dies, if fa is not mistaken, the victor gets the spoils of the fight, slaves etc, so even if the 'dead' reinvents himself, he still has lost all he posessed

Gornt~~~ if One truly loves Gor then One will make a home anywhere

Mandi~~~ Would not it be best to avoid death challenges and just spar and take One's licks in a challenge and live to become More later.

Gornt~~~ but then He gets the chance to get new stuff without a garage sale

SholGar~~~ ~LOL @ Gornt..~

Dak~~~ then also, that brings up another point, of killing slaves !

Gornt~~~ ~nodding to the Seemstress~ a very cogent observation Mandi

fallen~angel~~~ yes the new Master can do as He wishes with the slaves, kill, keep or sell them. After all He is Master, we are merely slaves.

Gornt~~~ there are never enough Dak don't be killing any

Dak~~~ I don't intend to, I figure on Man's garbage, may be anothers' treasure ~!

Mandi~~~ If One regards Gor to little to avoid a death challenge until One has the skills to meet one, He is a Fool. I have never seen Anyone issued a death challenge Who had not had numerous chances.

Gornt~~~ ~nodding~

Mandi~~~ As a practical matter, this site really cannot exclude people if they are determined to get in. I force collared One in here, and Phen killed her, and she returned several times. I learned that, as a practical matter it can't be prevented. **shrugs** If she were to come in and behave according to her station, though, I would not have made an issue of it, but most who will not behave according to their station will be ostracized with the *ignore* button.

Mandi~~~ ::chuckles at Dak:: I pay their Owners well for their work in the shop, and it is hard to find good help.

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how *mere* is a slave?

Shadowglade~~~ *noting that discussion has stopped* any other topics?

Asellus~~~ *Emits a heavy sigh, still listening for a new topic.*

Shadowglade~~~ alright...*chuckle* lively bunch...moving on...here's another topic.....since it was mentioned about "mere slaves" how mere, exactly IS a slave?

fallen~angel~~~ a slave owns nothing, not even her name Master, it dont get more 'mere' than that *grinning*

Gornt~~~ I agree with fa

calia~~~ ~ a smile to the "mere" girls lips~* ..
calia uses it often , in regards to herself as "nothing more than" ..." or "simply" ....merely piece of property...

jasma{GS~FG}~~~

In the eyes of goreans, the slave is an animal. She is not a person, but an animal. She has no name, saving what her master might choose to call her. She is without caste. She is without citizenship. She is simply an object, to be bartered, or bought or sold. She is simply an article of property, completely, nothing more.
Hunters of Gor pg 147(DAW) page 168 (Tandem)

fallen~angel~~~ chattel calia *grinning*

SholGar~~~ But a slave can capture One's eye or own a piece of One's heart. A good slave is a little more than "mere" in My opinion.....

calia{GS}~~~ ~*warm smile to fa~* like minds....*winking*

Shadowglade~~~ Well, I look at it this way...a slave should be viewed as a prized possesion....not mere in My opinion....granted..not on the same level as a Free person...*shrugs* I liken it...and please excuse the metephore, as it is imperfect, but I liken a slave to a prized dog...or horse....One can love a dog or horse, sometimes as much as any person....a slave should be cared for, looked after, and treated as one would a prized pet, or piece of livestock....

Kayla~~~ But because of the on line issues... We really have to consider they are more than mere property....

Lemuel~~~ ~nods at SholGar's words~ Aye, kajirae have some value. Otherwise they would be given away for free. ~grins~

cat~~~ When one is made a slave on Gor, they lose all the rights and connections they had in their past life. They are no longer seen as the person they were before, but rather are viewed much as an animal, and are treated as such. They do not decide their own fate, and are not expected to make their own decisions regarding their lives, as this is no longer theirs to choose.

Gornt~~~ I always did

shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~smiles, warmth rushing thru her veins, peeking back to her Master~*~

cat~~~

"My original name was Susan," she said. "My last name does not matter. When I became a slave, of course, my name was gone. Animals do not have names, except as their masters might choose to name them. The name 'Susan' was again put upon me, but now, of course, I have it only as a slave name."
- KAJIRA OF GOR, Pages 57-58

SholGar~~~ Agrees with Shadowglade....We kolar the good ones..the one's that make Us happy...that in itself makes them more than "mere" slaves. ~reaches for the hot flesh next to Me~ This girl makes Me very happy...

Dak~~~ slaves are very important to online Gor !

jasma{GS~FG}~~~

You are slave. In actual practice, of course, masters tend to pay a great deal of attention to the thoughts and feelings of their lovely slaves. Her deepest thoughts and desires, as well as her most trivial fancies and observations, are open to him and, because he owns her, of great interest to him. A man is much more likely to be intensely fond of a girl he owns than of a free individual toward whom he stands in a mere contractual relationship. The latter he does not own; the former he does. The owned girl is a valuable; she is precious; this makes her much different from a business partner. For what it is worth, the most intimate and deepest loves I have known have been between masters and their slaves, that between the love master and his love slave."
"But the woman is still a slave," she said.
"Yes," I said. "totally and categorically. She may even be sold if he wills."
"The attention and love such a girl obtains," she said, "need not to be accorded to her."
"No," I said. "It's a gift of the master."
"He could, at any point," she said, "simply order her to silence and put her to his feet."
"Of course," I said, "and sometimes he will, if only to remind her that she is a slave."
"She is, then, for all her freedoms, yet absolutely under his will."
"Yes," I said. "She is his slave."
"I love you, Master," she whispered.
354 Explorers of GOR

cat~~~

"The men call us 'slave meat,' and such, and perhaps this amuses them, and helps to keep us in our place, at their feet, but only a woman who is a fool believes them. They want, and own, the whole slave. Even Gorean law makes it clear that it is the entire slave who is owned, not merely a part of her."
- DANCER OF GOR, Pg. 154

Mandi~~~ I have seen slaves given away here.

fallen~angel~~~ if Master says we are not mere, and it pleases Master thus, then we are not mere to Him *smiles*

Gornt~~~ very well done cat

Shadowglade~~~ good point Kayla...that too is a consideration that We, as VT Goreans need to consider...in the books it's well and good to treat a slave as what she is...because in the books a slave had no where to go to escape....but online it is a whole other thing...in My opinion, a happy slave is a good slave, and will stick around, and work hard at pleasing because she feels valued...and is loyal to her Master, not because she fears Him, but more because He has won some part of her, and she would do His bidding because she wants to...

cat~~~ Thank You Master Gornt

SholGar~~~ ~smiles~ If they are nothing or unimportant then why do I not feel like I wish to give My girl away and seek another?

cat~~~ Master's in general, see slaves much in the same way the Law does. Gorean men do not seek to defend slave girls or protect them, other then what would be obvious concerning the preservation of their personal property, or that of another. Such would be done for the sake of the owner though, not so much the slave.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to Mandi~ Aye, but You know what I mean. Men are willing to pay for them, so they aren't valueless. I agree with what the Captain said before, it's like a favorite pet or possession.

Kayla~~~ well said Shadowglade *ss*

calia{GS}~~~ a slave wants to serve...wants to please......
aches and craves for it,actually (in calia's case *g*)
but a girl knows not of her worth..~ she is valuable to the wishes of her Owners.....calia could be given away,she imagines...~smiling to Mistress Mandi~,nodding in agree...

Gornt~~~ ~nodding to the Captain~
I gave Mine back to the Tavern when I could no longer keep her happy, she is flowering here

fallen~angel~~~ becuz she pleases You Master Sholgar?

Asellus~~~ Of course, it is always best for the person behind the monitor to suppress all earthen ideals. This may be hard to do. We all have a desire to love and be loved and feel of worth....

Shadowglade~~~ *nodding* Aye, Gornt, and one of the best slaves I ever owned, I too gave to My home, when I could no longer be there to see to her safety, or growth....and have never been able to get her back...*shrugs* it is sad, but at least she's still on Gor...and I can see her from time to time...

fallen~angel~~~

"A slave girl owns nothing. She has nothing to offer a man but her service and her beauty. She has nothing with which to pay but herself. That is the way men want it." (Slave Girl of Gor, p.220)

SholGar~~~ Exactly fa....she has some value to Me. she is more than a "mere" slave to Me. I value her service and willingness to please.

Kayla~~~ ~rolling My eyes over the veils~

SholGar~~~ ~LOL~

cat~~~ They do not "bargain" with men, nor do they place "limits" on their service, they simply do as they are told and do it when they are told, or they are swiftly, harshly, and effectively punished.
A master may discipline, beat, brutalize or even destroy his property if he chooses, and the Laws of the various Gorean lands will not only not contest this, but will fully support it.

fallen~angel~~~

"No woman is worth anything until she is put in a collar. None of them have any worth until they are made worthless." (Players of Gor, p.56)

Mandi~~~ Asellus, Lady, I know what You mean. I suppose I deal with it as thus: There are two Persons I am dealing with when here on Gor. I am dealing with the Goreans in My home or wherever I meet Them, and I am dealing with those humans behind the keyboard. The Gorean gets precedence. And I do sometimes see someone in a situation and just want to intervene, but do not do so.

calia{GS}~~~ her voice asking softly,of Master SholGar...
but should Yours become not so pleasing...You might rid of her and search another to please You,aye? ...that is slaves life,her longevity and survival in Your steel depends completely on her ways to You...~* ...
~calia very happy He is so pleased with His beautiful slave~

shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~~~ ~*~hazels dancing in His praise, whispers softly~*~ thank You Master...she does long to please and serve You

Kayla~~~ hush angel... that is enough ~laughing softly~

Gornt~~~ and good laws they else there would be anarchy

Shadowglade~~~ *snorting at the FW*

cat~~~ They do not so much as even possess the names they are called by, these being given and taken away as it pleases their Owners. Their lives are subject to their Owner's whim in a very real and tangible way

Asellus~~~ *Warm eyes regard Mandi's so gratefully for understanding. She sighs* Thank goodness someone is following Me on that one. *chuckles softly*

fallen~angel~~~ ~*winking at Mistress Kayla and Mistress Asellus and Mistress Mandi*~
present company excluded of course!!!

SholGar~~~ you do a fine job girl...My gold was well spent. ~S~

Kayla~~~ better! ~grumbling underneath the veil~

cat~~~

"What are my duties?" I asked.
"Exquisite beauty and absolute obedience."
- SLAVE GIRL OF GOR, Pg. 261

Mandi~~~ fallen angel, quotes presented during forum are not assumed to reflect anyone's opinion. So long as that kind of statement isn't made in the Tavern by a slave.

Gornt~~~ aye
a b s o l u t e o b e d i e n c e!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shadowglade~~~ that's all well and good for the books cat..but not very practical for online Gor....*shrugs*

fallen~angel~~~ ~*smiling at Mistress Mandi~*

cat~~~

"Gorean slavery is categorical and absolute. The slave is property, an animal. She is incapable of doing anything to alter, change or affect her status. She is owned by the master, and owes him all. She can be bought and sold. She must serve with perfection."
-RENEGADES OF GOR, Pg. 386

fallen~angel~~~ "Slave girls are not permitted to shortchange their beauty. They must fulfill its promise." (Magicians of Gor, p.416) ok a question in realtion to this quote... is 'a slave shortchanging her beauty if she is found displeasing by a Master? does she become ugly in His eyes?

Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at the Captain's words~ Aye, there are some accommodations that must be made for v/t Gor. In the books no one cares if a slave's feelings are hurt, but online it is important to keep the girls interested and happy or they will simply leave.

calia{GS}~~~ she kneels in silence ~ listening.....

cat~~~ Master Shadowgalde, with respect, there are some sites that follow the quotes with their slaves, that is how the slaves are taught to go by the books, to learn the true meaning of slavery, what's it like to be pleasing to show obedience, to show Honor the One that owns the slave, to feel the burning that is within that makes her want to try to give all she can to be the one that the Master wishes to keep

SholGar~~~ ~wide smiles~ Aye a happy slave is much preferred over an unhappy one.

Kayla~~~ I would think that is a fair assessment angel *ss*

Lemuel~~~ ~shaking My head~ No fa' I think the quote means more that a slave is not allowed to disregard her appearance. The kajira must always try to look her best.

Shadowglade~~~ *nodding to Lemuels words* Aye...and if they leave...ALL of Gor is the worse for it in My opinion...

Asellus~~~ I totally agree, Lemuel.

Mandi~~~ I may be speaking heresy here, but this is role play and we have different skill levels and soemtimes come in and have missed something. I would hope that any person--Free or slave--who has freaked out about something, would have a friend to pm, something like **stepping out of character to ask..... ** and get some support to deal with it and learn.

SholGar~~~ I prefer hottie kajirae....~LOL~

fallen~angel~~~ mmm...that quote in fa's opinion can be taken both ways, look her best outside as well as inside as ugliness and beauty do shine through people.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods~ And being mindful of the slave's feelings doesn't mean that they shouldn't be corrected and disciplined as required, just that One shouldn't be *cruel* with them.

Asellus~~~ And everyone's opinion of "cruelty" differs, of course. *nodding at Lemuel*

Lemuel~~~ ~smiles, nodding~ Aye Lady Asellus, that it does.

Shadowglade~~~ that may be so cat, but unfortunately, such people are few and far between, and fewer still last under such exacting rules....online Gor happened because all of us at some level either love the books and wished to be more a part of it, or because we find it fun on some level...now I personally do not wish to be overly oppressive...My slaves obey, and seek to please Me, because they know that I value their efforts....and because it gives them a chance to explore that portion of themselves...I'm not saying there is no place for a harsh Master...I Myself am very harsh when need be...*shrugs* I just see no point in demeaning a slave merely because I can...

kuriosgina~~~ ah but what is considered cruel..to some it might be but to others it is necessary to be alittle cruel

terra{MKS}~~~ ** almost purring at His touch.. eyes darting from one speaker to the next..trying to understand as much as she can**

Dak~~~ I agree with that Shadowglade

Mandi~~~ When I was new to Gor, I walked in on One whipping a slave, and left because it was His property and I knew I had a few things to learn before I could watch this. On the other hand, I have stayed if I felt a HNG was going to damage a slave, to at least C&P in case the girl was nervous. Most can handle themselves well and in character.

Gornt~~~ well said Captain, I agree, to what does a Master gain by treating His property so

cat~~~ wouldn't it be better to own a slave that was true to the kolar upon her neck and to be pleasing then to be one that showed disrespect and didn't care if she was pleasing or not? she just wrote the words they were never felt like a true kajira feels when she serves the One that owns her life or serves Another Free with her heart and soul?

Lemuel~~~ ~nodding to kuriosgina~ Yes and some of that is knowing the person you are dealing with. Some slaves take better to a firm hand than others.

Asellus~~~ Do you think because some Goreans are overly conscious about the "cruelty" factor and it's effects in RT, that the Free in question may in fact lose His or Her slaves for want of a stricter Master? *just tossing out a question*

calia{GS}~~~ ~ a growing smile to her lips,as she listens...~*

Mandi~~~ Some here are harsh, Few are cruel, and the cruel Ones either change or do not last, one way or the Other.

Shadowglade~~~ that is true gina...*shrugs* But I am merely stating my opinion on it..and do not question how another handles His property...*shrugs* My opinion happens to differ with many...including some of My Brother Captains...*shrugs* but it is a matter of respect...they respect Me...and I respect them...

kuriosgina~~~ true,some slaves need to be taught,some like pain,it makes them obey much easier but not all

Lemuel~~~ ~shrugs~ I don't know Lady Asellus. I only know that I don't feel it is necessary to discipline a slave for every small mistake as long as she understands that I will discipline her when she crosses what I see as the line.

sensuelle~~~ *smiles* listening closely...*nodding as she hears some wise words being spoken*

fallen~angel~~~ a lot of people perceive Goreans as being cruel, however fa has yet to met a cruel Master or Mistress here that, like Mistress Mandi has stated, have left or changed

Kayla~~~ there is a big difference between cruel and harsh... alot of the slaves crave that harshness in a Man... to be completely Mastered...

kuriosgina~~~ Then your slaves must perform well,just my knowing that you do respect them

Shadowglade~~~ of course it would girl, but wouldn't it be good also if a Master knew His slaves, and paid attention to their needs as well? How good would a slave be in the books if her Master never fed her? she would die, and He would have no slave...online it is another matter...a slave feed off of something, for some it is a strong hand, for others it is to be treated well..*shrugs* it varies....

Dak~~~ a good point , Caste Bro !

SholGar~~~ ~looks to Mine~ Are you well Mastered girl? Do you have enough leather and firmness in your life? ~LOL~

cat~~~ what about the Masters that are control happy, and beats the slave all the time for the least little thing??? is this right?

kahri{o}~~~ ~smiles in agreement with Mistress Kayla~

Shadowglade~~~ cat, I think most would agree that it is not...however, she is HIS property, and therefore no one has the right to say different, unless they intend to back it up with Steel...

shirin{SholGar}~~~ aye Master, very well Mastered, Master ~*~smiles shyly and lowers her eyes to Him~*~

Markos~~~ I don't think a Master should be afraid to show compassion or tenderness in a slave, but He shouldn't be afraid to use the whip either *LOL* did I say that

Lemuel~~~ ~looking to cat~ Masters rarely beat their slaves in the books. I don't know why Some feel it necessary to beat their slaves a lot.

SholGar~~~ I think beating or mis-using a slave too much would make one want to sleep with one eye open...~S~

cat~~~ yes Master Shadowglade, cat can understand that, slaves lose all rights when steel is placed upon her neck, but in respect One that whips the slave all the time for nothing, wouldn't that cause the slave to lose the fire that is within that makes her a slave?

fallen~angel~~~ cat, if a slave is not pleasing in her Masters eyes, He can do whatever He wishes with her, be it beating, restricting her, binding her to the post, whatever...after all His is Master, she is slave and she IS to be found pleasing to Him. He may be hard to please, so be it, she must strive harder to please.

Markos~~~ no cat it is not a question as to if its right, it is His right

shirin{SholGar}~~~ ~*~smiles and winks hearing Master Markos~*~

sensuelle~~~ Master Lemuel...may sen say she feels Master's online she thinks beats slaves to make them feel powerful and Many do not understand what a real Master is or how One should act and treat His slave...then there are some Who just enjoy the cruelty of hurting girl's...and often the hurt goes into r/t as well with one's feelings and heart...*lowering her eyes quickly*

SholGar~~~ but fa...being difficult to please can, like anything, be taken to the point of ridiculous.

Gornt~~~ Aye Markos, the right of any Free

Shadowglade~~~ of course it would...and as I said...No one could do a thing about it, unless they wished to face that Master in a match....*shrugs*

Gornt~~~ ~smiling~ not at all

cat~~~ you are not seeing what i am saying, a Master whips a slave for nothing, just for the heck of it, does that make it right? a slave a true kajira would lose the fire in her belly because of that, it has been done

Asellus~~~ I have not seen an out-and-out beating take place in the tavern. Perhaps a whipping or two, but not in the sense that I think many are speaking of. *raising an eyebrow* Sounds almost BDSM-ish.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to sensuelle~ Aye, but I don't really understand that. It just shows the person to be petty in My eyes.

Gornt~~~ ~understanding the girl's point~
that would be willfully damaging His property, not a good plan

Mandi~~~ ~~hearing sensuelle's words~~ Those are Few and far between here. The majority of the cruelty I have seen toward slaves would be better characterized as neglect of their well-being. I would hope a girl (her Friend behind the keyboard) has a friend in r/t or v/t to discuss her hurt with.

fallen~angel~~~ but that is a Master's right to be pleased, no matter how ridiculous others perceive it to be *shrugs* that is just fa's opinion. What One Master finds reasonable another finds unreasonable, Everyone is different.

Shadowglade~~~ I'm agreeing with you cat...but I don't see the point...No one could do anything about it...a Master wishing to lose and abuse his slave is free to do so, even if I happen to disagree with Him....*shrugs*

Gornt~~~ ~chuckling~

cat~~~ Master Markos, with respect to You, yes it is His right, but, there should be a limit on trying to break a slaves spirit or to smoother the slave's belly to be a true kajira

calia{GS}~~~ gentle eyes finding those of cats'...~* ...
whispering...then a slave finds safety in tavern collar perhaps...to grow...to flourish ....

Lemuel~~~ No cat, it doesn't make it *right* - even John Norman thinks that people who get off on causing pain or receiving pain are sick. He even says so in "Imaginative Sex"

shirin{SholGar}~~~ aye, shirin know what you are saying cat, she has seen a sister die within because of such a thing, her Master beat her just for the hell of it and she never recovered and left gor eventually

Gornt~~~ ~smiling at calia and nodding~

Shadowglade~~~ many sites attempt to make such a rule cat...but the problem THEN is that Free hate to be told what they CAN and CAN'T do with their own property....so, it's a matter of the slave losing her belly, or the site losing it's patrons...which has happened too...

cat~~~ yes calia, cat can see that,but, what about the ones that aren't so fortunate to have done that

Mandi~~~ Random discipline is worse than no discipline.

sensuelle~~~ Aye Master Lemuel...girl agrees
Well Mistress Mandi, sen is glad to hear it's that way here...she's also been neglected in past, abandoned...beaten..tongue cut out.....sorry girl will hush now

kuriosgina~~~ however some pain can be the most exciting orgasm a person can feel

since jaz wasn't able to respond to this line of talk by gina.. just wished to add:
the idea of pain on Gor was for punishment purposes only.. not to be used in a sadistic manner to achieve an orgasm by either parties. this is Gor.. not bdsm.. yes.. the tenents of dominance.. submission is real.. yet.. any sort of pain inducement for pleasure.. isn't something that's part of Gor..

fallen~angel~~~ cruelty can come in all forms cat, not just whipping. some people are just cruel, unfortunately *soft smile*

Markos~~~ oh, perhaps cat would like to be treated as a gorean princess slave *LOL*

Lemuel~~~ ~nodding at Mandi's words~ Aye, that's what I keep telling My Companion regarding the children. Be consistent, then they know where the line is.

cat~~~ yes some of the rules are bad for slaves, but if the slave has always been pleasing, and she did one thing wrong, and she tried to fix it, and He whipped her to within inches of her life or even killed by a whipping her is this right?

kahri{o}~~~ ~whispers~ if a girl truly wants away from the Master she can get help from someOne. a girl has seen it done before.

cat~~~ No Master Markos, cat does not, there are no princess slaves on Gor

calia{GS}~~~ ~whispering softly to cat~* they wander,and hopefully stumble upon someone to help...~shrugging her shoulders~* ..

Mandi~~~ Aye, little one ~~referring to kahri~~ and this site's rules do all they can to protect the slaves' r/t existence. Noone can demand your r/t info and have a right to it.

kahri{o}~~~ ~softly she smiles to Mistress Mandi~
a girl is most delighted to hear that, Mistress

Shadowglade~~~ *ss* Aye....Please, everyone is welcome to stay, but this forum is now over, thank you all for coming, and remember.....We do this every week here...*chuckle*
however all Tavern rules are now in force....so slaves MUST beg to leave, and to enter....

fallen~angel~~~ fa would like that thank All for allowing her thoughts and comments at Your forum today.

Lemuel~~~ ~nods to the Captain~ A great forum Shadowglade.

calia{GS}~~~ calia thanks Those Who allowed her free word and permission to parttake in such discussion ...~* slaves eyes lower with due respect.....~

Asellus~~~ *Sighs heavily and stretches awkwardly for an ihn. Pushing upwards from Her kneel She arises shakily, Her legs having fallen asleep. She chuckles at Her clumsiness and nods a trite 'farewell' to those present and with dignity, She strides carefully from the tavern*

jasma{GS~FG}~~~ ~finishing up on the notes.. hearing Master Shadowglade call the forum to a close.. she softly speaks~
the mere tavern slut thanks You for moderating the forum this night Master Shadowglade..

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